I have never written a letter like this before as I prefer to focus on the positive. However, after my experience with the people at the West End Dive Shop in Bridgeton, MO I felt compelled to write to the dive community. I am relatively new to this awesome sport and my experience certainly made me think twice about the level of trust we place in the people and business owners who serve as our ambassadors to this growing sport.

It started when a friend and I planned a dive trip to Bonne Terre Mines, MO. We are from a suburb of Flint, MI and planned to drive down for a dive weekend. We have been Scuba Diving for a year and thought this would be a great adventure for us. Our local dive shop has been down there dozens of times and we had the impression we were dealing with a reputable dive operation. We scheduled our trip in advance and could not wait to drive down. The West End Dive Shop, which owns the mine, set up all of our accommodations and the trip was paid in full at the time we scheduled.

Two days before we were to drive down, there was a snow storm coming through the Midwest. Upon learning about the weather we were concerned about our trip. We called the West End Dive Shop with our concerns. They stated and I quote "The mines are not affected by weather. The dive is on. Just take your time and get down here. We look forward to diving with you." We reaffirmed our check in time for 4:30 pm for the upcoming Friday.

We left Michigan Friday at 8:15am and white knuckled our way down to MO. The drive consisted of nonstop conversation on diving and how mine diving in this location would make everything worth it. We were excited.

Upon arrival at Bonne Terre at 6:30pm it was obvious that the power was out. We went to the Depot where we had reservations and found it closed up with no one there; not even a note on the door. We talked to a couple workers who happened to be there working on restoring the power. They informed us that the power had been out since the day before. We then called the Dive shop looking for some help-no answer. We called our home number to check for any messages. Sure enough there was a message left at 4:30 pm Friday, canceling our dives for the weekend. The message was left at the exact time we were to be checking in. The shop was aware we were driving from Michigan. THIS MESSAGE WAS LEFT 24 HOURS AFTER THE POWER HAD ALREADY WENT OUT! With no other options, we searched for a place to stay and decided to go to the dive shop the next morning to discuss with the owner what happened.

Upon arriving at the dive shop, we were informed that the business owner was out of town. The manager on duty was aware of our situation being that he scheduled our dive. He knew we were driving down from Michigan. His only statement was, "Wow you drove a long way." He then went on to complain about his day and all of the problems he was having while the business owner was away. The two of us decided to wait until we could speak to the business owner, assuming that the manager would not view the situation the same. At this point we had spent two days on the road and over $300 in travel expenses. We were confident that the business owner, given the dive shops negligence, would treat us fairly and we could look forward to rescheduling the dive in the future.

We drove back to Michigan that Saturday and waited to hear from Doug Goergens, the owner, who we were told would call us by Monday. By Tuesday he still had not called so I decided to put in a call to him. The conversation went as follows:

Doug indicated he had not heard anything about our situation. I calmly explained the above story to him. To my amazement he replied in the following way:

"What the ?@ck do you want me to do?" (In a harsh tone)

"The f@?king power went out and you are going to give me this bull@#?t sob story! How the hell was I supposed to know that the power was going to go out? (He continued to cuss as I sat silently for the next two minutes)

At this point I knew I needed to remain calm because he clearly wanted me to retaliate and fuel his anger. I had not been rude or accusatory to anyone at the dive shop and was not about to start now. I simply told Doug that I wanted to explain to him what happened and figured that he, as a business owner, would understand our situation and make it right. Obviously this was not going to be the case.

Doug remarks:

"What the $%?k do you want me to do about it you #@#hole!!! You don’t think we have been through enough S@?t down here as a result of this storm? I’m not to blame for the f#@#ing power going out! The mine has never lost power and we have never canceled a dive! You want to give me some sob story about how you spent your precious time driving down here, I DON’T GIVE A #@?T!!! I don’t ever want you to dive here! You are complaining about how much money and time you lost, I lost way more than you did…so too @#?king bad!"

I replied:

"I understand you didn’t make the power go out. I know this was unexpected. What I don’t understand and what I am upset about is the fact that no one called us to let us know not to drive down there even though the power had been out for 12 hours. They waited 24 hours to call us. They called and left a message at 4:30pm on Friday, the exact time we were to check in. We were almost there! We spent 2 days of driving and over $300 in expenses and have nothing to show for it. A phone call that morning to let us know that the power had been out for 12 hours and that the diving would be canceled would have been appropriate."

Doug says:

"I wouldn’t have done anything different if I were here. This is not our problem. This situation is a speck on the Jolly Green Giant’s ass and I’m not going to think about it after this conversation is over."

I said:

"Just put the money back on my card"

As the business owner, Doug could have done a lot of things to right the situation. He tried none of them. But in a sport like diving that requires so much trust, I thought it was important to communicate how Doug Goergens feels about his customers in Bonne Terre Mine, MO.

Sincerely,

A speck on the Jolly Green Giant's Ass

It's unfortunate to hear about your experience with Bonne Terre.

It certainly seems the power outage threw them for a loop and proper customer service was of no concern. As a new diver Bonne Terre was certainly on my list of dives to be made in the future. Until now I have heard only great remarks about the mine if only in print and blogs. Now I have to take your experience into consideration and put BT mine on hold until futher info is gathered on why this happened.

Sites like this are very important for this reason although we all should view both sides of any story, as a member of the local media we always try to get both side of the story if they are available.

I hope you at least get your money refunded and by all means continue to enjoy diving.

Nelson 

Dive! Dive! Dive!

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

This type of "customer service" is nothing new to the owner of Bonne Terre.  There was a time when the club I belonged to used to go down there once a year to dive and we put up with it.  We did, at least, until on one trip about twenty of us were having dinner in "The Mansion," a hotel/restaurant that he operated at the time.  This was supposed to be a high-end establishment.  The service was horrible, despite our having made reservations and ordered 24 hours in advance, we were stuck in a room that could barely accomodate 12 people.  Onr orders were all fouled up.  Some of our party were served right away, while others were not served until some were already finished eating.  We waited forever to get our coffee. 

The woman in our group who had organized the evening (and the trip) made a polite complaint to the wait staff.  The owner was in one of the other dining rooms, where a birthday party in his honor was being held.  When he was told of our complaint, he stormed in to our room, obviously drunk, swearing, verbally abusing and insulting our club organizer and everyone else in the room.

This all took place about fifteen years ago.  I have not been back there since.

Dive! Dive! Dive!

Man, what an all-around shame.  For an establishment that advertises a lot (Diver, Scuba Diving, Dive Training, websites, etc...) and not just to a local crowd, this behavior could really come back to bite them in the nether region.  The storm was indeed a fairly rare occurrence, but nobody deserves to be verbally undressed like that, especially as someone's customer. 

It appears that the BT experience depends on how things are going for the ownership.  If no issues arise, sounds like things run fine and everyone enjoys themselves.  Maybe not so much if anythng goes out of synch. 

Personally, it won't stop me from diving the mine at least once for the experience, but I'm likely to let someone else coordinate things just to avoid the potential added stress.

J Couston

I realize that there are two sides to every story.  But in your (Al's) response you said they should have checked the weather report and seen that there was a storm.  Al, they did check the weather, called your shop, and were told that the weather doesn't affect the mine and that there will be diving for the weekend.

I don't agree with their demand for a reimbursement for their travel and hotel because like any trip one goes on, you are taking a chance with mother nature whenever you go on a vacation. 

Just my two cents.....

This has all been very good feedback.  I can appreciate all the views so far.  But I need to set the record straight now that Al has posted comments.

1. Al was who we scheduled the dive with in the first place.  He is the same person who told us that weather was not a factor when we call to check on the storm. The weather blanketed the entire Midwest.  It was not an easy drive, but we truely felt we had to drive down or risk losing money.

2  We never had a chance to make any demands. We both wanted to dive the mines.  We at no time wanted to screw that up.  We did not want to burn a bridge.

3. We both run businesses and understand the pressures of a business owner.  You couldn't find two people more simpathetic to the hardships of a business owner.  We never wanted a free ride.  We only expected to be treated fairly and respectfully.

4. I agree that there are two sides to every story, but sometimes there is a right   and a wrong side.   Based on Al's email, you decide.

5. I look forward to posting on this message board with more positive stuff in the future.

Thanks, 

A speck on the Golly Green Giants Ass

Well I have followed this thread closely as I was thinking about about diving the mine this winter. I am also glad that Al made a reply to the original post.

That being said I think I will avoid scheduling a dive to BTM untill I see and hear better revews especially in regards to the owners.

Have you gone down lately?

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

CaptDarrick,

To get around the timeout problem:

Write you response in a text editor like Notepad.

Copy and past it into MidwestScuba.

I am not the one who needs mental help. I just need to vent.

Carmella Soprano

can't argue with points 1,2 & 3 but somebody down there needs to refine their people skills. Like they say offshore:

" ONE OH SH#T ! Ruins a thousand atta-boy's"

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

I enjoy this board very much and I think Mr.Holvick is being ridiculous. A group of us were also on for that weekend and we were on the way to Bonne Terre when we were called with the cancellation. We had been listening to the forecast and made the decision to turn back as the weather forecast was worsening. Al was the one who called.  He was very polite and explained the situation,  Al told us we would be fully refunded for the money we paid. He apologized for the inconvenience of the weather conditions and we decided to reschedule.  

Since you are a new diver and don't understand that cancellations do happen wherever you dive due to weather conditions, you need to get educated on travel insurance. We belong to a dive club and have been diving at Bonne Terre Mine for several years. Many of us know Doug and dived with him several times. He is a great guy a serious business man and I don't believe Mr. Holvick is telling us the whole story.  Sounds like Mr. Holvick was pushing the problem by calling them several times with his ridiculous demands    He is using this board to try and damn Bonne Terre Mine.  I for one hope you don't stay in diving if this is what you are expecting from all your dive destinations.

Our club is thankful for dive operations such as Bonne Terre Mine. It is some of the most incredible diving in the world, they always put safety first, and have one of the most professional dive staff we ever experienced.

It took a person like Doug  to take the chance to develop such a place, so we all can enjoy it.

How can these other people on this board such as Hammerhead be so judgmental. Our club definitely plans on returning many times over.

For you few who choose not to go, just because you don’t like the owner,   It is your loss.

anthony meadows

Man!!

This is the best thread ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think anyone is trying to damn anybody. Capt. Dale has been around awhile, I'm sure his experience wasn't fabricated. As far as me being judgemental.............. (sometimes) I guess I can weather that (been called worse) Anyway HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

Hammerhead

Wow!!! I can’t believe what a bad attitude you have.  After reading this forum, I believe you’re the “self important asshole”, not Doug!

You say you love this thread.  You are the kind of guy who ruins this great thread.  You have never claimed to have been to Bonne Terre Mine, nor have you claimed to know the man whom you are calling “self important asshole”.

You just want a place to bitch.  No one should have to tolerate a person like you!

You are so quick to call him an asshole, not even knowing if Holvick is telling the truth.  Heck, he might be a competitor or someone put up to this by a competitor, for all we know!

This board was created for divers to share dive experiences, not as a place to damn people without proof!

You made the statement that no one is trying to damn anybody.  What do you call what you are doing on this thread??

As much time as you spend on this board to get attention, it seems to me you need to get a life!!

Bonne Terre Mine is a fabulous place, and our club loves it!!  

You are the kind of jealous person who can’t stand to see others succeed!  When we go to Bonne Terre Mine, they are always packed, and everyone is usually raving about their dives.  

I can assure you, that you are not going to hurt their business, because they know what makes people happy, and what it takes for us to keep coming back!

In defense of Doug, he really is a super guy whom I am glad to know!

Hammerhead, Get A Life!!!

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

Reef, do you work for BTM?

Get off Hammerheads ass you clown.

No I have never dove the mine but it was high on my list. After reading the posts on this thread and after talking to some friends who have dove the Mine and thought it was awsome but had trouble with the management I have scratched them off my list.

I do hope in time management learns how to treat a customer I will put them back on my must dive list. Till then I aint comming.

Have you gone down lately?

Thanks ScubaTim ! Careful though, he may think were working together! But you know in away we are. We are consumers in this this sport and expect the same service from dive operators as we would get anywhere else!

This is a case of:

REEFER MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

I am the one who has been to BTM 3 times with 2 bad experiences. Yes I fully understand my ear problem merits no refund I did show up did one dive and could not continue. Never at any time did I request a refund since I understand my space could not be “re-leased”. As discussing the matter with both Doug and the guy behind the counter I was treated very poorly. I did not want a refund merely a minor 5 – 10% discount on a future trip which I would have booked and paid for right then and there, and told them. The two were obnoxious and rude which helped me make MY decision NEVER to return as long as they owned and operated the mine. Besides this forum I have heard from other diver friends who have had similar or even worse experiences. I tend to agree and support Hammerhead and ScubaTim. Being in a service business myself – sometimes you have to spend a little money to make money – even if it is only for goodwill.

J Couston

You absolutely right The way I was treated and talk down to is MY reason for not returning to BTM the money was not the issue nor did I pursue the notion I was entitled to any money to be returned.

J Couston

I have been reading threads on the web site here for some time. After reading the fiasco here I wanted to add to this thread. I have dove Bonne Terre many times over the last ten years, in fact my next trip is scheduled in six weeks and we I will be competing the twenty forth trail in the mines. I know many of the people on the dive staff and we usually go out to dinner together after the dives. I have met the owners and had enjoyable conversations with them.

The only issue that I can decipher after reading this thread is that people are having some issues with the owners. It’s obvious that the people that are having the problems are the people that are expecting something for nothing. Holvick dives to a dive site in an ice storm, 700,000 homes without electricity and expects to go diving. Then he shows up the next morning and expects to get a three hundred dollar refund for his travel expenses for the operators’ negligence? So the operator is negligent because the ice storm hit the weekend he wanted to dive and the operator is negligent because there was no electricity. It is the operator’s obligation to refund the money for your dives due to acts of God such as bad weather and nothing more. No operator in the world will refund your travel expenses. If there is one, they won’t be in business very long.

If I were the owner and got a call from someone expecting me to pay their travel expenses I would probably tell them where to get off. If no one else in the dive business does this then why should Bonne Terre? This guy expects the owner to take three hundred dollars out of his pocket and hand it to him. It’s the same principle with the poster expecting a fifteen percent discount for their ears. Is it the operator’s negligence that your ears won’t clear? Wow, where is the dive operator that does that? Try that one in Cozumel.   

I know some people may consider Bonne Terre an expensive place to dive and after my conversations with Bear, who has been on staff there since the early eighties and has logged almost three thousand dives there you can understand why. One of the biggest expenses is insurance. Bonne Terre is not like diving in a public lake or the ocean. There is also five hundred thousand watts of lighting over the lake, another expense that other dive operations do not incur. Remember without those lights it is total darkness. They also have to pump the water out of the mines to keep it from flooding. Without those pumps it would be cave diving and that does not interest me. There are also usually two staff divers with you on every trail and a third above you in a boat.

Yes, everyone boycott Bonne Terre and we will lose a great place to dive. I have recommended to some of my friends that don’t dive very often to go to Bonne Terre before going out on a week long dive vacation just to re-sharpen their skill and they were glad they did. . To any dive operator it is about business but to divers it’s about diving. I have over one thousand dives and I remember the ones in Bonne Terre because it is so unique. Since life is only a collection of memories I can say I am glad I’ve been there.

Steve

Both sides have raised interesting points about BT. It certainly  a popular local dive site and one that's still on my list as a new diver. Boycotting may not be needed but "tweaking" customer service seems to be in order . Hopfully the feedback from this site reaches managment and reminds them that the "Gem of a dive site" they have is worth investing in solid consistant cutomer service. Drawing divers form around the US means you not only represent BT but your city and state.

Nelson  

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

I was watching CNN the other day and they were talking about the power of the internet.  This is a prime example of it in the works.

Any ways, I need to post a review of my last dive trip to Mermet Springs and I would be more than happy to post a review of an upcoming trip to BT.  I will be going there over the next few months and I don't want to say when I am going- as it could sway the type of treatment we are given.  However, if people would like an unbiased review- I will be willing to write one.  I have never been there before and I do not know any of the individuals mentioned.  Nurses are known for their honesty and I am willing to give my 2 cents.

Mystery shopper/diver!!!!!!!!! COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great idea, no kidding fair and unbiased. I look forward to your posting. Now, anybody out there??? Whats your favorite local dive shop and why???????????????? Whats your least favorite?

I've been to three in the Chicago area, my vote for best service is Scuba Emporium. My wife and I went in to buy a wetsuit and booties for her and we were treated great!!!!!!!!!! The other two shops????? That's a whole other thread.

It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.

icu the internet don't ya love it.......

That being said I am looking forward to both trips reports and hope to hear nothing but great things regarding BTM as I would love to put it back on my must dive list. I will not put it back on my list till I hear some good reviews in regards to the operations at the mine.

Have you gone down lately?

So I've sat here and read through the entire thread.  A Lot of good points in here.  That storm that they have been talking about.  That was one of the craziest things to hit mid Missouri.  I am from St. Louis which is about an hour north of BTM.  People all over the state were without power for days.  But of course nothing like that has happened in a very long time so no one knew it would get that bad.  I have posted a review on my trip to BTM this past weekend.  It is definately unbiased as I went there expecting a negative experience because of some reviews like this.  And no I am not affiliated with nay dive shop pr BTM at all.  Glad I was wrong though.  Enjoy!

King