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MSD FORUMS - RECREATIONAL DIVE TRAINING AND EDUCATION |
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TOPIC:
The sorry state of recreational dive training
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diveshopowner
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Joined on
7/28/2007
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As a diveshop owner I have watched recreational dive training deteriorate to the level that training is really nothing more than breathing underwater and being guided at dive sites. What ever happened to divers who were both mentally and physically fit? What happened to training which prepared a diver to dive unsupervised? The training agencies are only concerned with receiving fees for memberships and registrations and selling books. The standards have deteriorated and the training agencies are turning out unqualified divers who can't enjoy the sport because they are poorly trained. 9 out of 10 divers leave the sport in the first 12 months of their training. Is PADI kidding me by traing divers as young as 10 years old? Can a 10 year old understand diving physics and physiology? Can diving be taught online? Unless the shop owners and diving public stand up to this 800 pound gorilla called the training agencies. More dive shops will fail while the training agencies prosper. Eventually there will be a lot more diving accidents and fatalities. What do you think?
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ppo2_diver
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Joined on
6/7/2006
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I agree. Training has been dumbed down to a sad state to meet the wants/desires of dive stores and agencies. Agencies have allowed the non-divng community to dictate how the classes will be taught and what the standards will be. They call it "market research" that targets the non-diving public when deciding how to setup the courses. The instead should be talkig to their own members about the best way courses should be ran as we are the ones who actually run them. There are a select few of us instructors who choose to exceed the minimum standards set by the agencies and teach what is right. Many of the agencies, dive stores, and instructors are looking for a short term, quick buck instead of building a posititive relaitonship with customers/students and building revenue (as well as a positive reputation) over time. Eventually, the diving public will see it and vote with thier wallets (or lack of) and force the agencies to rethink their "market research" strategy. Just my 2 cents.
Duane A. Johnson
www.precisiondiving.net
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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I strongly agree with both of your posts! Please read my blog titled "Recent dive incidents. There is one disagreement that i have with ppo2 diver and that is that the general public is never going to wise up and demand better training. The public wants it cheaper, easier and shorter, and the training agencies are providing whatever the public wants in the name of profit. What the heck has happened to comprehensive traing requirements and harassment drills? I have instructors that teach a PADI curriculum because the public demands it. I am pretty sure that PADI instructors can't adjust the curriculum to exceed the standards of instruction. They must follow a cookie cutter recipe for certification with no variation to adjust for indivdual skill levels. Is my understanding correct?
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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PDSLTD
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Joined on
6/28/2006
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Having been a owner for over 22 years, (now retired) I agree. However the problem is that PADI caters to the resorts. When I started the core of diving was the YMCA's and Local Dive shops. Soon the resorts decided more money could be made if they could offer a short resort course, this was the start of the Dive cancer for the retail dive shops. Soon friends would tell friends how they had a great time and did not have to take an entire class. As time went on the resorts put pressure on PADI to offer a class which did not require them to attend the entire resort class again when they travel.... now we have the Discover Scuba Diving program which gives the student a card and they only have to do a minimal refresher and they are diving again. No need for a Open water cert. any more. Then the resorts included all equipment with thier programs. Hence no need to buy gear any more. Wonder why your classes are so small and gear sales are way down ? As long as Dive shops allow PADI and the resorts to dictate the playing field, the end of local dive shops as we know them is not far off. The final nail in the coffin of local dive shops is the internet sales of gear, which most are now doing adding to thier furture demise, God help the local dive shop if somebody figures out how to fill a Scuba tank over the net. ; )
To Error on the side of Safety,
is to Live and Dive Again.
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markv
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Joined on
1/13/2006
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Wasn't it PADI that was saying diving is safer than bowling? I am NAUI certified since 1970. The training that I endured to become certified was very comprehensive. It took 5 weeks to become certified. You attended two days a week for two hours an evening. If you aren't getting at least 30-40 hours of instructor led sessions you are not learning how to dive! One weekend can't cut it! You can do it in a couple of weekends but the training must be intense. Most likely everyone is now to busy for a traditional NAUI or YMCA class, but it can be compressed provided you have the same number of hours of instruction. I am also interested if PADI doesn't allow any flexibility in their curiculum to adjust for divers who are more capable or less capable. From what I have seen PADI instructors are not instructors at all they are just there to grade reviews that the student does on their own.
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ff1diver
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Joined on
10/6/2007
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I guess I am the exception to your thought of PADI dive instructors. I worked very hard to achieve my PADI dive instructor certifcation and am very proud of the fact. My question is...Why are the training agencies being blamed for turning out poor, unqualified divers? To me it is not the training agencies fault, it is the instructors. I have only certified 20+ divers since my inception as a PADI dive instructor. I could have certified more potential divers for the numbers and credits but those divers did not perform the skills not only to PADI's expectations but they did not preform the skills to my own. When we educate new divers, we are not only teaching them to have fun and be mindful to the underwater environment, we are teaching them skills to survive if a problem should occur while submerged. If they can not perform those skills with confidence and ease...sorry, no c-card from me. It is my name that goes on the bottom of the divers PIC to state they are certified to dive on their own, no one elses. It is the training agency that is taking my word that the diver is qualified. I don't just look at the reviews that the students bring prior to coming to my lecture. Most of my students have signed up for more advance diving courses to become better divers.
Go Mizzou!!! ff1diver
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ppo2_diver
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Joined on
6/7/2006
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I will disagree that PADI instructors can only run cookie cutter classes. You can still add value and exceed standards without getting in trouble with PADI. For example, in my AOW course, the first dive is a Nitrox dive in which we review basic diving skills (i.e. reg removal, mask skills, air shares, etc.). We also go over gas management, calculating SAC/RMV rates, how to blow a bag. My OW course is a minimum of 6 weekends for all modules. There are other PADI instructors who demand a higher level of performance than what we learn in IDCs.
The non-diving public is driving the standards right now for OW classes. The more diving accidents make it in the media, the more people will realize that much of the training is inferior. For certified divers, they will (many already do) see the crap that is being force feed to them and take their money somewhere else where they will get a better value for their money.
Duane A. Johnson
www.precisiondiving.net
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markv
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Joined on
1/13/2006
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In response to the instructor who is proud to be PADI affiliated: I have heard of situations in which the PADI instructor refused to award a basic certification because of incompetency performing basic skills. The client complained to PADI saying it was unfair that certification was not awarded (obviously with no concern for safety, only a concern for the money which was spent for the course.) PADI raked the instructor over the coals as if the instructor did something wrong. PADI then STRONGLY suggested that the instructor sign off on the certification.
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ff1diver
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Joined on
10/6/2007
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Iam really sorry to hear that.
Go Mizzou!!! ff1diver
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sobfrogg
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Joined on
8/4/2006
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The quality of instruction is up to the instructor. A student can be held back because they did not demonstrate mastery of a skill.
I have help people back and will do it again. I also have not signed off on open water students for this same reason.
Padi was not the first to start with elearning. SDI was the first. They have been doing it for 4 years now.
So yes I do belive the level of education and training has fallen. This is due to shops and instructors going for the more money and add on sales. If we want to have happier and safer divers it is up to us. The instructors teaching basic open water. For this is the building block to a fantastic sport.
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ff1diver
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Joined on
10/6/2007
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True, so true.
Go Mizzou!!! ff1diver
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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I am not onboard with internet training. I firmly beleive that scuba instruction is without question best completed face to face with an instructor who can personalize the academics with personal experiences and one on one interaction.People are no longer trained to dive unsupervised, responsible for their own safety. In most cases, dive candidates are only trained to be able to follow a guide at a resort. No one should wonder why 9 out of 10 entry level divers are no longer involved in the sport one year after their certification.This is not good for the dive instructor or shop owner, it is only good for the corporation selling certifications, books, and online education (if you can call it that.) Online scuba training, are you kidding me? This will also remove the local shop from the equation in my opinion. Complete training online and then take a trip to the Keys to complete your open water training. Then buy your gear online. Then get your dive travel online. THEN GET DECOMPRESSION PROCEDURES ALONG WITH A TRIMIX CERTIFICATION ONLINE. Somebody please stop the madness. Does the public really want this?
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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MgicTwnger
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Joined on
6/1/2006
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Does anyone else think that there are just too many people being certified? Let's face it, cold water diving is not everyone's cup of tea, and the tropics are overcrowded with poorly trained divers.
I am not the one who needs mental help. I just need to vent. Carmella Soprano
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sobfrogg
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Joined on
8/4/2006
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I will wait to make up my mind on the e-learning.
The way it was explained to me by the shop owner was, the student completes the accademics on line(mmmmmm how good can this be i wonder) they come into their LDS to do the confined water material. Here is the fun part. They have to register w/ an LDS to do the e-learning once they have finished it they now come into the shop w/ proof they have finished the e-learning or to get helpto finish. Once that is finished they can do their confined water.
Some people learn better w/ an electronic media vs an one on one classroom. I have had a few DVD students mixed in my classes and they answer my questions better and faster than the classroom students. I only handle the confned water and the open water teaching. We have another instructor to do the classroom work.
As for does the public want this. I think they do. We get more and more people wanting the crash course or 1 or 2 day class. We have to turn them away for we do not do that. I do miss the days when we had 5 pool sessions. More time in the water turned out divers that were more compfy in the water.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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test
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Here's a fun thought! Once a year local shops and instructors submit their two most recent grads to compete. They will demonstrate their diving skills, judged by a panel of experienced divers. The winners along with their instructors will be awarded prizes!!!! The losers and the instructor responsible, will be beaten to a pulp in the parking lot!!!!!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Lets do it at Haigh quarry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love that place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Just joking!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets talk about the last time we had fun doing this. It's like we've forgotton that this sh%t is fun.
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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sobfrogg
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Joined on
8/4/2006
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I had fun diving the Oriskany. Does that count???
Teaching has to be fun!! If its not the quality of the instruction goes down hill.
Do we get to pick which of our students go in front of the panel :) :)????
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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recent grads only, and yes you can pick!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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What type of skills, do the subscribers to this website, suggest should be included in the "DIVE HARD" competition for newly certified divers. I suggest that the new divers participating only be certified 14 days prior to the competition (documents to be provided). The Dive Shops entering should pay the competitors entry fees to Haigh and any equipment needed should be provided free. If someone can come up with good ideas for the competition. I will run the idea by Tina. The competition should take place on a holiday weekend, Memorial day, Labor day, 4th of July, Jim Haigh Memorial Dive.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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Some suggested skills:
Entrants will complete skills alone accompanied by judges.
Compass navigation from the Flamingo to the LARC to the Truck.
Unsuported bouyancy control at 15-foot ladder rung at the deep hole for 5 min. Accurate within 2-feet measured by marker tape on the downline. Point deduction for drifting out side the markers.
Tired swimmers tow to the bouys at the deep hole and back to the runway. Timed
3 difficult decompression table problems. Scenarios such as reverse engineering the tables: need to do a repetative working dive at 70 feet for 35 min. how much surface interval is required.
What do you think?
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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ppo2_diver
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Joined on
6/7/2006
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How about trim within 30 degrees or less, having buoyancy control (and within good trim) with no mask on, swimming air shares, swimming a foot off the bottom with points deducted for stirring up silt.
Bonus points for having a good dive plan.
Duane A. Johnson
www.PrecisionDiving.net
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markv
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Joined on
1/13/2006
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I think we are talking about "new" divers who have completed 4 or 5 openwater training dives. Not technical divers or cave divers!
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ppo2_diver
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Joined on
6/7/2006
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I to am talking about new divers. The bar should be held higher than what it currently is as the goal for this "competition" should be to see how good a new diver can be trained. The skills I listed can be accomplished by student divers and are critical skills every diver needs to know/have.
Duane A. Johnson www.PrecisionDiving.net
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SDAnderson
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Joined on
5/30/2006
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What is wrong with dive training that prepares a diver to breathe
underwater and be guided on tours? Many divers are happy doing nothing
more than hopping in the water and being led around in circles and
that's okay. It isn't necessary to be able to execute a helicopter turn while blindfolded or to qualify as a rescue
diver before being allowed to dive.
No offense, folks, but the
only rational need is that new divers be prepared with the knowledge
and skills that will allow them to: (1) do no harm to themselves or
others, and; (2) have fun.
I was initially trained in the bad
old days and the intensity and the curriculm were both needless and
dangerous. Needless because divers simply aren't getting hurt in
significant numbers now that training has been revised to make it more
appealing, affordable and fun. Dangerous because the old training left
many students both physically and emotionally traumatized and actually
resulted in a significant number of injuries during training.
Remember:
good enough is always good enough and ripping someones mask off their
head isn't training, it's hazing. Arguing that training should be more
comprehensive just because you say so is unfair and silly.
I'm
repeatedly struck that so many of those who advocate a return to the
bad old days seem less concerned with the happiness and welfare of the
students than they are with establishing their own credentials. For
those few of us for whom diving is a consuming passion, getting the
additional training that allows us to expand our horizons is easy
enough to do. We have no cause (nor right) to force our standards or
our interest on the majority that just want to go someplace warm and
splash with the fishies once or twice a year.
In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka, "Lighten up, Francis." :D
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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Yeah, lets make training less stressful. Diving is safer than playing a round of golf. More injuries happen on the golf course than underwater. You can learn to clear your ears on the internet. Breathing underwater is easy. If a tourist takes a 1/2 day resort course certification should be awarded. You don't need to have your own mask, fins and snorkle. I really like resorts that assemble and clean my gear for me. Divemasters generally check the percentage of oxygen in my nitrox bottle. Divemasters generally figure out the dive plan, residual nitrogen time and end of letter dive group. Oh, I don't need a water resistant watch when making a 40 foot dive. Compases aren't required and neither are knifes, the dive instructor is just trying to sell me equipment. I am not going to get lost and my 12 year old son is not going to get entangled.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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People who are looking to engage in sport diving as cheaply and easily as possible will actually believe the above. They will keep looking for the instructor or training agency that tells them what they want to hear. What they want to hear is that they don't need to be commited. You know, lets all drink the cool aid, and support the training agencies that want to make it as easy as possible (oh, by the way it is never their fault when an injury or fatality occurs, it is always the instructors fault who didn't follow the ufollowable standards and policies.) Lets go for an 80% dive shop failure rate instead of the current 60%.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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I was trained back in the bad old days, and 35 years later still diving. Darrick hope you run with this competition!! I'll submit two, maybe an event like this can spark some passion. I'm happy I suggested this!!! Do we really get to beat up the losing instructor? I'm in, (not afraid of an A%% whooping)
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Another thought, how about a competition for those certified 20 years plus? SDanderson, you gotta be joking!!!!!!!! I got 1000.00 cash that says I smoke your lilly resort course lovin A$#. Lets do this thing MAN !!!!!! DIVE HARD!!!!!!!!! Death from below!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOORAAAA
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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SDAnderson
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Joined on
5/30/2006
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The contest started long ago. I don't know who you are but here are the results thus far:
- The divers are getting along just fine. They neither need nor want instructors like you.
- The agencies are getting along just fine. They neither need nor want instructors like you.
In a nutshell, whackjobs like you are largely irrelevant. (I suppose that this might explain your impish behavior.)
Though
I doubt it, you might be a better diver than I am. My training and
experience extend far beyond being an instructor and I'm comfortable
with my skills. After nearly 40 years of diving and several thousand
dives, it has been my experience that the loudest blowhards usually
come up short when its time to get in the water, but you might be
different. I don't care, so long as you dive safely and have fun.
Clowns
like you may rant about training standards but when the pretense is
stripped off your argument, you don't care about helping other divers
get better, you just want to blow your own horn and kick up a fuss. It
would be better if you put a sock in it and let the grownups talk.
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PDSLTD
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Joined on
6/28/2006
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The Illinois Counsil of Skin and Scuba Divers has a competion every March.
2007 only one club showed up to compete. It might be an idea to see if rather than just clubs competing that 5 man teams be allowed to compete.
Most of the events are fun events that involve some basic and advanced skills. If I can convince them to let any team of 5 enter, this would be a great time to do a dry run before doing it at Haigh during the Summer.
Besides they had some pretty good prizes, 2007 they gave a trip to Cozumel away and over 30 other prizes.
To Error on the side of Safety,
is to Live and Dive Again.
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sobfrogg
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Joined on
8/4/2006
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Where to start????
I would like to have longer pool sessions. I would like to have longer classes. Most of my students are trying to do too much. With school, sports, band, etc competing for time. Not to mention all the time for PSP's after school activities. Now how about the adults?? Work, Driving the little ones around, their own plans and activities (insert anything here).
Most families are pressed for spending anytime at all with each other yet alone 3 nights for classroom work and 2 sunday evenings for pool work.
Now when they do go a vacation they like to have things done for them. This is their down time. When I go on a fishing trip and I come back w/ fish yes I can clean my own catch, but it sure is nice when the guy at the dock does them for me. Or how about when I go bear hunting?? Do I want to haul the bear out of the woods and process it. No I do that at home w/ my deer. So it is nice to have the guide do it fo me. Do I tip a $100 to do so. You bet I do. Do I let the gun club clean my gun and bath the dogs after a day of bird hunting. Sure I do.
Now you are thinking whats this got to do w/ diving and dive instruction? Well most people when they go on vacation are trying to get the most out of their trip. So whats wrong w/ a guided trip??? The local divemasters should be able to point out cool stuff that you may miss. Does this mean that people should slack off on their skills. NO!!! Should people let the divemaster set up their gear? Thtas a hard one. I tell my students they should be ding it themselves, but some people enjoy being catered to and thats all it amounts to.
I belive my students leave my open water class with a good working knowledge and good skills. Could they be better sure. Are they going to remember them when they go on a trip in 8 months? I doubt it. Thats why we off a scuba revue for our customers going on trips for no charge if we are in the pool already. We try to encourage divers to come to the quarry and work on their skills. All we can do is lead the horse to water. Its up to him to drink it. Does this then make them bad or unsafe divers? Thats hard to say. If we make it to hard for the masses then they will look elswhere to spend there time and money. Without them where would we as instructors be??
The debate here is how do we get him/her to drink. How do we compete with all the other intrests without degrading our industry???
A contest or competition involving intructors and their students is fine but is that going to help keep people diving. Thats what this is all about. Keep the $ in diving. LDS, Resorts, Charters, Gear the list goes on.
Scott
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Haven't had this much fun since the BONNE TERRE mine thread.
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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Captain Dale
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Joined on
3/31/2006
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The winter competition sponsored by the Illinois Council of Skin and Scuba Divers has been an annual event for at least thirty five years that I know of. It is a lot of fun. It consists of a number of competitive events chosen from a menue of activities. No one knows for sure what the events will be until the day of the competition. There serious races like mask, fins and snorkel relay races and ditch and don for time. There are also fun events like underwater tricycle races.
About twelve years ago, our club hosted the event and I was in charge of the competition. One of the events that we had planned was an underwater dive tables contest. The object was to descend with a buddy, work out four dive table problems on an underwater slate and then surface. The team who completed the problems first was the winner. Time was deducted for errors. The slates that we had used in previous years was missing so the night before the competition I made new sets of problems. I printed them out and laminated them in plastic and then copied the tables from the Navy Dive Manual and laminated them too. The morning of the competition, I gave the package, along with the answer key to another club member, who was also an instructor to check the accuracy of my answer key. (I had finished putting everything together about 1:00 AM and I thought it would be good to have someone else check my work.) A few minutes later the instructor that I had given the dive table problems to handed it back to me. He explained, "I can't work these problems. I only know how to use the PADI tables."
Dive safe,
Captain Dale Bennett
Charter Captain & Instructor Trainer
Open Water through Advanced Trimix
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ff1diver
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Joined on
10/6/2007
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What a sorry state of affairs...I can not believe the insults, the badgering, the unprofessionalism that is going on in this thread. A student only dives as well as they have been instructed. Period. If the student does not meet the open water or any other dive course standards and skills do not sign your name on the bottom line of the c-card. Now the debate of elearning, buying gear on line, resort training can go on forever. But for those instructors who have participated in this thread, train your divers and train them well; train them knowing that you have full confidence that they can dive by themselves with out your supervision. One of the best compliments that an open water instructor can recieve is seeing your students wanting to go on fun dives with their buddy the same day you bless them as open water diver certified--without you--the hard ass instructor.
Go Mizzou!!! ff1diver
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Got an e-mail this morning, NAUI is gonna allow jr. certifications to 10 year olds, oh well. I think that there are enough Hard Ass instructors and hard ass students, for a competition like this to be successful. It would be a lot of fun, (trash talkin,intensity,etc.) If it offends the sensitive, then dont participate.
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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markv
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Joined on
1/13/2006
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NAUI is just caving in to the PADI standards (training 8 year olds). This is totally motivated by money. Do these agencies really believe that an 8 or 10 year old can understand physics or physiology. How about the mental conditioning to not panic and ascend while holding their breath. Parents should be turned in to DCFS if they enroll their child in a course at 8 years old. Just another example of the sorry state of recreational dive training.
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CRC Diving
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Joined on
5/15/2007
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OK first off PADI does not allow 8 year olds to dive mimimum age is 10. So if you feel to shoot your mouth off with inaccurate info please aim fo you own foot. One of the issues I see about this thread is the amount of second hand info. If you do not have facts then putting it out for the world to see is nothing but gossip. Second I plan on getting my son certified as soon as possible. For you to make blanket statements like no children should be certified is just proof to you ignorance of people's abilities.
Something for some of you to keep in mind.
It is better to keep quiet and have people think you are stupid, then to open your mouth and prove it.
CRC Diving
Scubaetc@hotmail.com
www.crcdiving.com
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markv
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Joined on
1/13/2006
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Sorry for the mistake! That 2 year period between 8 and 10 years old makes all the differencein the world from a safety standpoint. I will bet the 10 year old can understand the dive tables much better than the 8 year old. There is no doubt that the 10 year olds knowledge of diving physics and physiology will be superior to the 8 year olds grasp of the material.When a 10 year old runs out of air I am sure that without hesitation he will find his buddy and share air competently and confidently. I will bet the 10 year old can drive a car! Does the Secretary of State issue drivers license to 10 year olds? Can a ten year old fly a plane? Lets get real, 10 year olds have no business diving. Any parent allowing their child to scuba dive at 10 should be required to take a phycological exam.
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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You might find my blog about a diving fatality and training protocol interesting. It was posted today. The author makes some good points. Particularly about being "water competent."
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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SDAnderson
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Joined on
5/30/2006
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Mark -
How old is old enough to learn to dive? Twelve? Sixteen? Eighteen? Twenty-one? Thirty-five? What is the accident rate for ten year old divers? Is it greater or lesser than the accident rate for adults? Where would you draw the line - and on what basis?
I'm not in favor of most children diving but I'm even less in favor of letting the State (or self-appointed busy-body Safety Nazis) be involved in decisions like this that are the prerogative of parents.
If you're going to set the standard, you ought to have something more solid to go on than rhetoric, especially since you're in favor of very draconian State intervention for anyone who disagrees with you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Lets get back to the competition. I dont think anyone on here would let the child dive unsupervised. Would anyone be offended if I called my team SCUBA NAZI'S ????????? Maybe Draconion Divers!!!!!!!!!!!! I know! How bout SCUBA IMP'S!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Sorry, DRACONIAN. Blowhard,hardassed,impish and cant spell for sh&t!!
Look forward to the competition! See you at Haigh. I'll bring some 10 year olds, we can throw em on the grill!!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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chickmagnet911
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Joined on
11/16/2007
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I think internet training is a great idea for self motivated students. The book material is better learned by yourself than taught by a gear salesman who is not a teacher. Some instructors seem to get so caught up in selling gear that they forget to teach any meaningful amount of basic physics and more importantly dive tables. I'm pretty sure 55% of my classroom and 25% of pool training was spent by the instructor trying to peddle every overpriced crap piece of equipment that I didn't need. I would have much rather done all the book work online, taken a rigorous exam then been free to go do my open water dives somewhere warm! Then I would have avoided 95% of the BS I dealt with here in Chicago. I do believe in safety, also in separation of instructor and salesman!!!
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SDAnderson
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Joined on
5/30/2006
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Some of you regret the fact that dive training was analyzed,
standardized and made more accessible back in the mid-70’s but here is a simple
truth: the “dumbed down” PADI-style (or RSTC, if you will) training has made diving safer, not more
dangerous. If you don’t believe it, DAN publishes a “warts and roses” analysis
every year that clearly shows this improvement.
Despite an explosive growth in the popularity of diving
(thanks to those horrible dive shop owners and evil training agencies and
dastardly instructors conspiring to meet the needs and wants of their
customers) the actual number of dive related fatalities has declined over the
years.
The current state of affairs is far from perfect but it’s
also far from dismal. More importantly, it’s better than it ever was. When speaking
of standards, remember that the standard can never be perfection, a laudable
but unobtainable goal. The standard we should measure against is always the
alternative. Unfortunately for those of you unhappy with the current state of
dive training, the alternative you are proposing, the old way of training, has
already been tried and was replaced by one that is easier, less time consuming,
more fun, less expensive and SAFER!
Those of you who cry for a return to the way things were are
either misinformed or are still trying to shake off that post-60’s fog. Few
people were willing to endure the training back then, fewer were able to make
it through the training and the very few supposedly uber-divers that became
Open Water divers were more likely to die than the softies coming out of today’s
Open Water training. The changes look pretty good in that light.
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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After following this thread for the last couple weeks I really think that the key to safe and effective in water training is water competency. The prospective client should demonstrate proficency as a swimmer. It has been my experience that when a client is a competent swimmer the training process is safer and easier. The key is that the client feels comfortable in the water. I am sure every instructor feels the same. With that said, todays standards are ridiculous! All a candadite needs to demonstrate is that they can move forwward in the water to enroll in a class. If they can't really swim they shouldn't be allowed to enroll. This will also weed out the 10 year olds whose parents want them to enroll and get certified.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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PDSLTD
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Joined on
6/28/2006
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I agree.
But I also think that at times and with some shops/resorts and/or Instructors the only skill they are interested in the student being able to perform efficiently is the ability to open thier wallet.
To Error on the side of Safety,
is to Live and Dive Again.
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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I agree somewhat. When it is cheaper,easier and faster the general public will open their wallet a lot easier and the resort, shop or instructor is more than willing to take it. The general public really doesn't know they are receiving second rate instruction. The training agencies have decided a long time ago that most "professionals are poor teachers and even worse salesmen. They dumbed it down for both the instructors and the general public. The pubic is only interested in a certification card. Upon receipt they think they are qualified to dive at any resort.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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The following is an example of the swim test I require. These are exit level requirements. In other words, certification is not awarded if the tests can't be completed.
(1) 10 minute survival float (dead mans float)
(2) 250 yard swim non stop using any stroke (no tme limit)
(3) 50 foot underwater swim with no push off
These are minimum standards of water competency which I beleive should be required of all basic certified divers.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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sobfrogg
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Joined on
8/4/2006
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At this point we are beating the same point to death.
PADI states that the student must swim 200 meters or 300 meters w/ mask fins and snorkle. Float un aided for 10 mins. Swim 50 ft under water.
All these standards are great, but if an instructor is going to hold his/her clients to the standards then what do we have.
PADI states that the student must demonstrate that they can comfortably maintain themselves in water to deep to stand in prior to dive 2. This what the swim and float is for.
Happy Turkey Day
Sobfrogg
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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happy thanksgiving all!! look forward to the competition!!!!!!!!!!! thanks for a great year of point/counter point. can't wait to meet some of you!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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I will negotiate the Dive Hard competition if we have a minimum 5 instructors or dive stores participate. MSD will set the rules (this is non negotiable, but indivduals may make suggestions.) We will try to arrange it over Memorial Day weekend 2008. Registrations from instructors must be made by March 1 so we can negotiate with Haigh Quarry. Prize will be a Blackbeard Cruise for the instructor and the competitor that wins, donated by MSD. There will be a $50 registration fee for the team (to prevent no shows.)
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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$ 50.00 I ain't got that kind of cash just laying around!!!!!!!!!!!! I may have to go diving for golf balls!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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PDSLTD
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Joined on
6/28/2006
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$50.00 includes Haighs $20 or is that additional for a total of $70.00 plus $4.00 + a gallon for gas to get there and back... (for my SUV about $125 round trip) I put it towards airfare. Sorry but I'm out...
To Error on the side of Safety,
is to Live and Dive Again.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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I'm in, coming from St. Thomas U.S.V.I. Let's go people, put your money where your mouth is! Darrick let me know where to send the check.
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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Hey, Darrick how bout a competition @ pearl lake,mermet springs and other places like haigh? My shop would sponser the grand championship between all the facilities here in st.thomas. We would provide all the equipment and the boat. Winning teams provide airfare/lodging. Maybe I could help with lodging (cheap local rates) Just a thought for down the road. Think about it!!!!!!!!!
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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kevins
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Joined on
6/15/2006
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Hammerhead, I am down on St. Thomas for a vacation, and am diving with Admiralty Divers. Are you associated with a dive shop? Be nice to put a face with the name. Your input to this thread and others is not only interesting but entertaining.
I am one of Capt. Darrick's prize students ;)
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captdarrick
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Joined on
1/10/2006
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God help us Hammerhead!
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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call me @ 340-690-5474
Antilles Scuba is my shop, I'm in Compass Point Marina out on the east end.
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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hammerhead
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Joined on
3/13/2006
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maybe we can go diving,have a few cocktails. I'll put some 10 year olds out to thaw.
It's okay, just show us on the doll where the P.A.D.I. instructor touched you.
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