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MSD FORUMS - TECHNICAL DIVE TRAINING AND EDUCATION |
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TOPIC:
Technical Diving-Specifically Wall Diving
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Cubfan |
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Has anyone done any diving below the 130' Level? More specially on a wall. I'm curious if there are any advantages to be trained to this depth? Any more to see, as far as ocean diving?
Obviously, the foremost concern is safety and preventing Nitrogen Narcosis. Maybe the risks aren't worth the reward.
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bpautsch |
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I sent Capt Darrick an email asking him to reply to this. He's done a lot of deep diving and is heading out to Hal Watt's Forty Fathom Grotto from March 21-28. I might be going with him as well so this information would be helpful for me too.
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captdarrick |
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Even though training agencies tell people they can dive to 130' I personally don't agree with this depth for a recreational scuba diver. The 130' depth limitation was originally set by the U.S. Navy because at that depth the time was so short on scuba that Navy divers couldn't get any work done. So after 130' Navy divers went on surface supplied. The recreational training agencies just picked up on this depth limitation because the Navy used it, and it has been a part of recreational dive training academics ever since. The 130' depth limitation has nothing to do with it being safe to dive at this depth if you are basic or advanced trained. It is my opinion that unless you have specific extended range training which will acclimate you to depths past 80' to 130' it is very dangerous for an unsupervised and untrained recreational diver to exceed a 100' depth limitation without special training. More about this later....
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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Cubfan |
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Thanks Darrick. Cubfan
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twow/atwist |
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In my opinion, the best diving on a wall is above 110 feet, where there's more to see. Remember ROYGVIB? Deeper depths are terrific (and often required) to enjoy caves and wrecks! Just one opinion, though.
Best,
Dan
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captdarrick |
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If you wish to extend the range of your diving activities below 100' it would be a good idea to take an extended range diving course. This type of instruction will thoroughly teach you the dive planning and narcosis management skills necessary to safely make dives below 100'. As most of you probably know, very few divers actually "plan" their dives and dive their plan. Most divers just kind of guess at how long they will be on the bottom at a particular depth, or just blindly follow some divemaster they haven't known for twenty minutes and try to make it to the surface with about 500 psi left in their tanks. Some of these divers even run out of air, most of the time far away from their buddies, and the have to go on an octopus with a divemaster or instructor. When extended range diving, RUNNING OUT OF AIR IS NOT AN OPTION. Many of the primary rereational training agencies such as NAUI and PADI have discontinued extended range technical training. It is my opinion that they feel most recreationally trained divers can't handle diving air to deeper depths because of the narcosis management issues, and I agree that most divers are inadequately trained in safety and air management. I believe that training divers to deeper depths on air (with depth limitations) is safer than teaching a diver to dive on mixed gas, provided the diver is intelligent and motivated. In my opinion after 30 years of commercial and recreational diving operations, that air is safer than gas at depths close to 200 foot deep, provided you have the proper training in planning and narcosis management. Air is forgiving and mixed gas is not so forgiving with regards to DCS issues. You can still receive training for extended range diving from IANDT and TDI. These two agencies train to a maximum depth of 180' . The Professional Scuba Association run by Hal Watts runs the best course of instruction in extended range technical diving. Hal still will teach exceptional divers air diving to 240'. Hal's methods of acclimating the diver at deeper depths through a series of difficult record keeping, narcosis management, and air management tasks is the best possible training method for extended range technical training. This is proven by the fact that Hal Watts has trained all the world record deep air divers since the 1960's and no one has ever lost their life. The Proffesional Scuba Association offers extended range training (now called narcosis management training) for recreational divers who wish to be properly trained to 100' or 130'. You can contact me for more info.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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Captain Dale |
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Actually, the reason the Navy adopted the 130 ft rule was that, according to a study they did with the equipment they had at the time, it was too hard to breath and do useful work below that depth. When I started diving in the early 70's different agencies were teaching different maximum limits. I heard numbers from 110 to 140 feet being used. Eventually most agencies adapted the Navy standard. From a practical view, though the 130 foot limit is probably a little deep for most recreational divers. Significant experience is necessary to manage the narcosis, air management and planning considerations involved in such deeper diving.
Wall diving is better done at the 90 to 110 foot level unless there is something significant to see at a deeper level. I recently did a week's diving in Roatan (20 or so dives) and never went below 110 feet. I am an instructor-trainer for advanced tri-mix but there simply was not anything there that justified doing a deeper dive.
Safe diving,
Cpt. Dale
Safe diving,
Cpt. Dale
Dive Charters - Novice to Technical
Instruction - Open Water to Tri-Mix Instructor
dale@captaindales.com 847-640-8113
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captdarrick |
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Cpt. Dale ,thanks for the additional info concerning the 130' rule. I also whole heartedly agree that wall dives are best done at a maximum of about 100' provided the diver posesses true advance skills not just an advanced card. I would also like to once again stress the fact that most entry level and advanced divers have very poor planning skills. This lack of planning makes diving, at any depth, dangerous. I believe more emphasis on dive planning and recording should be emphasised at all levels of dive curriculum from entry level to technical training.
Captain Darrick Lorenzen
captdarrick@midwestscubadiving.com
www.divemaxscuba.com
773-732-8972
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BigEd |
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Derrick Do not forget the DSAT program.
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ppo2_diver |
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In my opinion, deep air is equivalent to suicide. Why manage narcosis, when you can eliminate it? Especially when helium is readily available. The thing about narcosis is that it can hit someone at 80 feet or 180 feet. It is to inconsistent as to when an individual will experience it. Believe it or not, I've pulled students up from the hole at Haigh when they were narc'ed off their tails.
Duane A. Johnson www.chicagoexplorers.com
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twow/atwist |
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As an avid recreational diver with nitrox certification, I have rarely, if ever, been to a resort or dive shop that vendors more than air and nitrox. Many times even nitrox isn't available. I recently completed Hal Watts Nicosis Management certification to 130 feet. And, the gas management portion of the course is well worth the effort -- even when we're all breathing O2 and helium as the standard gas.
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hammerhead |
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Narcosis pales in comparison to the innate dangers of shallow gas diving!!!!! This is not something in my opinion that should be a part of sport diving, far to many things can and do go wrong! I've met only one other (darrick) that I believe has the background for this and I doubt that he would be on board for mixed gas (helium/02) for sport diving here locally!! He at least understands whats involved to set up a gas spread!! I know that he just like myself has seen just how wrong things can go,and how fast somebody can be hurt!!! This is about risk management, there is no valid reason to expose oneself to the dangers of shallow gas!! Also, narcosis at 75-90' ! They were probably confused by poor instruction, rather than narcosis!!!!
Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the restraints!!
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DeepDiverBob |
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For me, wall diving in the pretty blue water is just as nice at 30 foot than it is at 100 foot, for the most part. I go deep on the wall for a few reasons. 1) I like the feeling of being a little narked. I know pretty much what level of narcosis I can handle. 2) If I am on a follow me dive with a resort DM, chances are we are going to be limited to 45-60 minute bottom time anyway. And I have a hard time climbing back on a boat with 1500 PSI in my tank. So I will go deeper briefly, then work my way shallower as the dive moves along.
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scubatim |
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Not to hijack this thread but reading this brought up a question I can't figure out an answer for. Now this is basicly while diving at a place such as Haigh.
Why do so many people want to dive deeper than 30 feet at Haigh other than to see the Flamingo, Lark, etc.and how many times do you really want to see that?
Now I can understand diving along the walls and such as this is great trainning for Buoyancy but lets face it there just is not much to see below 30 or maybe 40 feet at Haigh. As a matter of fact I am not sure if I ever seen a fish below 45 @ Haigh.
Don't get me wrong I am not knocking Haigh I love the place and the people thats why I dive there at least every other weekend. I just don't see why so many people want to make deep dives there.
Have you gone down lately?
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Dean810 |
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Most people do deeper diving at Haigh just to try out skills. Also, if there are a lot of students in the water, you can avoid banging into them if you go to the deeper end. You are right, there are not much fish there, except right under the west dock.
I always like doing the Flamingo, LARC, Truck grand tour to practice my compass navigation skills. I try to do that everytime I'm there.
Join the Chicago Scuba Meetup Group! http://scuba.meeup.com/105
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dlent |
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Hammerhead,
I completly doubt that it was poor instruction that caused those students to get narced. It was probably the cold water and the fact that it was their first time diving deep. I am one of ppo2_diver's students and he's a damn good instructor.
Dave
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